Episode 7 - Journalism & Storytelling with Contessa Brewer

In this episode of Oh, hi! Stories Podcast, I sit down with my longtime friend and former colleague, Contessa Brewer, to talk about the evolving world of journalism, storytelling, and navigating a rapidly changing media landscape. From our days at MSNBC to the current state of news and social media, we discuss how trust in journalism has shifted, the challenges of keeping audiences engaged, and the importance of real, impactful storytelling. Contessa shares her insights on what it takes to stay relevant, the role of social media in shaping narratives, and her recent experience working with local governments on crisis communications. We also explore how journalists and communicators can adapt to a world where attention is fleeting, and truth is often questioned.

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About Dana
Dana Berchman is an award-winning expert in marketing and communications with a gift for leading teams, connecting people, and telling the human story. An experienced innovator, public speaker and media professional, Dana is a proven expert at developing communication strategies, maximizing reach, creating digital roadmaps for cities and organizations, and delivering data-driven results with heart.

Transcript

I am so happy to have you, my friend and former colleague, join me today on this podcast. Hi, 

and thank you for taking time out of your busy life and day to come and chat with me. I'm so happy to have you. And obviously we got a chance to work together. Gosh, it was almost. Oh, like 15 plus years ago now. And, and I'm, I'm just so thrilled that you are still killing it in the industry and in this business, although it's changed a lot and is still changing.

And so happy to talk to you about your journey, career, and. And as a working mom, you're someone that I so admire. And like I said, had the pleasure of working with. And, and after we worked together for a while, discovered that I actually went to high school with your brother, which is so amazing.

Yeah. And then went to go work for the city where my dad lives. And like, there's

all 

Hmm.

personal ways that our lives have intertwined, but it's, MSNBC together, um, Um, one, it was one of my favorite jobs that I've ever had.

Hmm. 

job was working in Palm Springs, um, and being the morning anchor in Palm Springs.

It was just a, it was, I was young and the people in town sort of adopted me and gave me this great life. But my, my time at MSNBC really elevated my sense of the way the world works, the way, the way that stories. Influence the mass consciousness. So where culture is, is a result of the stories being told and the stories that multiple people buying into at the same time. That's number 1 and number 2. the world is just, it is changing so rapidly. News good journalism are important, they rank so low now on what people think need or want. And that's, that's, that's a tough thing for journalists. It's, it's tough to work in an industry because this is not a, it takes a calling to be a journalist. um, and so when you don't have. Sort of massive sense of, oh, you're a journalist. That's great. We journalism is a cornerstone of democracy when that doesn't exist. It takes away part of the reward that journalists get for doing the tough work.

It's. That is so true. It is, you are so spot on about that. And I think it's a challenge that we all see as outsiders too. And from someone, like you said, in the industry who, who was there at a time, I love the culture piece of it too, because I started out my career at MTV at a time with, when I was working on election initiatives, like choose or lose and news really was my passion.

And that was, It was kind of the runway that I had there and then reality TV kind of took that over. And that's actually why I made the move to MSNBC. And I don't know if I ever told you this story, but I remember in my interview, they asked why they would hire me. And I love that you talk about Palm Springs because there's all these routes, um, you know, to careers in, in, in, in journalism and in news, but I didn't come up through those ranks.

I was a political science major. And had gotten my master's in journalism and public policy, but I didn't come up through local news and they were like confused by that. And I remember I said, but you branded yourself the place for politics. And I actually have this political background. And I remember one of the first times working with you and some of the other anchors, I think one of the reasons why also too, it was my favorite job was, you know, getting to help and storytelling right in this.

Not only the journalism piece, but this political piece at the time, which was also so critical and to get to be a part of that. And I remember in the moment of them thinking, Oh yeah, I guess people with political backgrounds also can do this work. And now, obviously, that's not the case. More common and you've got, you know, commentators and people that are coming in that are experts in the field.

But you remember this as a critical time when that brand was changing. And, and so this is something you've been able to navigate through. And, and I think it's so right. And I would agree with you that. These changes have reminded us all that journalism, although it's more challenging than it's ever been the work, it's more important than ever.

And I saw this even in local government with social media, where, you know, everything was questioned. Um, and I used to think really like you're as close to the source as you can possibly get, and we're delivering critical services, like your lights turning on and your toilets flushing. And, and yet you're kind of questioning how this information is delivered, which, which is really.

A challenge for us to continue to storytell and do that work. So how are you navigating this new world?

I mean, I'm, I'm mostly unplugging from social media. I just, I, I was a really early adopter of using social media as a way to create a two way street. I, I thought we're moving beyond anchors and TV hosts as the voice of God telling you how to perceive the world. Social media gives a way to talk back broaden the conversation and maybe take the question and turn it on its head. I mean, I really remember using this around 2008 Barack Obama was running for president and, and then, and, you know, sort of ahead of the rise of the tea party, but we were at this critical moment with the great financial recession.

Mm hmm.

jobs. There were a lot of talking heads. On MSNBC and elsewhere, um, that we talk about, you know, really complicated financial issues. And I thought, there's got to be a way that we can make this and tangible to a wide variety of people. And that's when I started a segment called get real, where I would introduce, you know, whatever the politics were around the problem of the moment, then like, let's bring it down and let's talk about how this affects the world. people in real ways, whether it's unemployment. I mean, today we would be doing this about tariffs. I'll give you a perfect example. And I digress on this, but when we're talking about the wildfires in California,

Mm hmm. Mm

I mean, I cover insurance now, California was an insurance crisis before the ever happened. Now, the rebuilding process will become much more complicated if the Trump tariffs go into effect on Mexico, and China because of the sheer number, the volume of building materials required, so much of which comes from Canada, Mexico, or China. Two, if mass deportations continue. What you will see is work crews.

I mean, the guys who are doing roofing and drywall and flooring, work crews will get decimated and there will be no people to come in and do the work. And California is competing right now with Florida with hurricanes Milton and Helene and and North Carolina and other places where big catastrophes have happened, and the job of rebuilding is massive. so that will be an unintended consequence of what the political policies are, what the fiscal policies are in Washington, D. C. And we have to, we have to have a way to talk about that in a, let's get real about what this really means.

hmm.

is. Even in 2008, when I started to do that, it started to be seen through the lens of partisanship because of the way that MSNBC was shifting its focus. I never, I was always a journalist. I do have an opinion. I'm, I'm pretty middle of the road and you can convince me to change my mind with a strong argument. And, and so when I started to embrace Opinion journalism. was my that was my is like I'm I'm a middle of the road or I'm a common sense thinker.

What are you gonna do with what kind of a box do you want to

put me 

Can you put me in? Mm hmm.

I know. 

I still think that that we need that. But how do

I 

deliver 

that? How do I deliver those? Get real moments now when social media is used so broadly where the sources of influence Are no longer journalists who've worked hard their whole careers to be truth tellers. I don't, I don't know. I just find that a lot of what I see on social media is poisonous.

Mm hmm. 

detrimental to my own mental health.

Yeah,

can see that things that used to be off limit and polite conversation now being rewarded with lots of attention on social media and it's leading to the destruction Of polite society, and I do think I mean, I want to be real.

I want to be honest, I also think kindness and politeness and civility still matter.

yeah,

I'm with you. It's so crazy that you say this because I was just telling my friend the other night, you know, I always thought of myself as a middle of the road person, too, and I worked, you know, nine years with two quite conservative mayors on the city side Never had an issue. Um, all of the sudden things that to me, again, like I said, seemed like basic, and that was something we always tried to do too, was just like the keeping it real was deliver this information and storytell in a way where you engage people and you can talk to broader audiences.

And you're right. I think something that was missed in the whole election that we all know now upon reflection is there were so many things that were. Not reaching people and other misinformation or disinformation that was and how do you reconcile that? And I said to my friend the other night, I said, I'm just kind of at a loss because I always thought of myself as that middle of the road.

So where's, where is my space? Where do I go? How do I continue to do that and tell stories and not feel like you said that you're, you know, Being relegated to choosing a side because so many of these issues are so critical to everyone. And I think the fires is a, is a great example of that. Um, a time of crisis where it impacted so many people, including my family.

Um, And I know you were there and that was actually what prompted me to invite you. I, I always think of you, but when I saw the work you were doing there with a FHIR PIO, I was like, Oh my God, this is such an important example of how local government and getting information out and using the media to do that and how those relationships are so critical.

And I thought it was so cool, the, the FHIR PIO ride along that you did. And so I'd love to hear more from you about. Where those opportunities are and maybe that's it. You know, I don't, I don't always see on the city side that they have PIOs like that. Um, that was kind of where my work was focused on and now is to helping other cities to understand, um, to have professionals and journalists and people that are telling these stories.

On the government side too is really critical. Police officers and firefighters aren't always the ones that know how to connect best with an audience like that. And I trained, I think, 17 PIOs over the course of 12 years, like how to use social media, how to tell a story, how to, and some are willing and open to doing it.

But these are also opportunities for journalists, um, and people that are maybe thinking about leaving the journalism career. I see an opportunity in local government, especially to storytell. And so we'd love to hear from you that perspective of that experience you just returned from.

know, it's interesting because you'll see at lots of different levels of government, and this happens in Arizona to by the way where you are, but, um, take defensible space. is widely accepted to be a crucial factor in. mitigation, but defensible space works best when it's done at a community level. So, if I live in the Pacific palisades, and I've cleared. feet of shrubbery from around my house and planted. You know, succulents, and I've got not mulch, but. Gravel filling in my planter beds. I've done the job. I've heard the message. I'm doing the best to protect myself. if my neighbors have Lots of, um, pine or, or other highly flammable shrubbery right up next to their house. doesn't matter what I've done because their house is going to catch fire and my house is likely to catch fire too. So in order to get a whole community, you, one, you can have policy that says the whole community has to do this or there will be consequences. And we're going to find you an economic incentives or, or disincentives work to get people to take action. But it's also that. If you tell the story that, you know, look, here's here's, I mean, now's the perfect time for for stories to go in and say, look at this house is standing. What what left this house standing and these 2 on this side? Not they have. Um, resistant Did they have rock mulch?

Like I was saying, what was the, um, house stucco or brick rather than made out of plywood with, wood joists and, frame all of that matters. And the stories about it matter. 31st. I had actually done a story on CNBC about mitigation for insurance purposes, the way that you can actually build or modify after the fact your or business. In ways that help you resist natural catastrophes and potentially lower your insurance rates. Like I'm here, I'm getting an earful about how much people are paying for property insurance. There's a reason for it. It's because it's expensive to repair or rebuild. it, I did this story on December 31st with a focus on these new building materials that are fire resistant. It's pretty dramatic. The demonstration that was set up for me, this house that, you know, doesn't have any of these new building materials and this one that does and how fast this one to the ground. And I just think you, you can't get past that story. But what has changed is that when I started my career, half of all the TVs that were on when I was doing the news were turned to me.

So 

Mm

of my storytelling was far greater than it is now, where there are so many sources of information people have, so many options that that kind of message can be drowned out. We're not heard at all. a real shift. And I don't, I don't, I do think social media can help break through that noise. I do think the best storytelling can break through it, but we're just living in a different world now.

And so 

Yep. Yep.

influencer in order for your message to be out and have immediate, you know, to go viral. Like that viral moment of guy that I wrote along with in California, he was the guy that saved my life. The dogs got on NBC News and then went everywhere and went viral.

He was adorable.

yeah, he's a,

He's a

He's everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's so true.

Hey,

you want in a star, in

like a 

yes, absolutely.

But that went viral for a reason, because it touched people's heart. But there's no way, I don't think that there's any way to tell ahead of time

what's 

I know.

that. What you need is PIOs. Who are willing to do it and do it and do it again.

You got to keep doing it. You can't just do it once and go, Oh, I have this great idea for a video. I think it's going to go viral and then give up on it. You have to do it again and again, and you have to make, we know this from old school journalism, but city council meetings are deadly boring,

but they're 

Amen.

important. So the best storytellers, I'm not even going to call them journalists anymore, like the best storytellers are the ones who can sit in that meeting and tease out the thread of what's the best narrative here. Like, we're going to talk about putting, um, compost bins So now when people are going to put out their garbage. And recycling. They're also going to be able to put out compost bins. How do I tell this story in a way that moves beyond the proposal that's now in city council

and and great storytellers know how to do that. And I think what we're seeing again, with the rise of social media is a lot of citizen journalists where you're not, you maybe have not gone to journalism school.

You've never been through a communications law class. It's irrelevant because you care about your community and you know how to deliver the story of what's important or what should be important to your neighbors.

for sure. I know. It's, it's so true. And what I've, a couple of things. One, I did get a Justin Timberlake, uh, retweet, which put us on the map in Gilbert, Arizona. Yeah. Yeah. That was Critical to my success early on, but that's not going to always happen. I've made that.

so hot now?

Like Justin 

Yeah, totally.

Well, and because of my team, but yes, we made a video for his can't stop the feeling when he was challenging groups and we were probably the only city to do it and he shared it on Facebook and he retweeted it and then gave the Gilbert, Arizona with the praying hands emoji.

And then it was like, we had so many followers and you know, you're not always going to tag people and they're going to see it. You're right. But I think. One thing I love to talk about, two things you bring up that are so true, you know, going where people are is so critical because the people that go to those council meetings are usually, they're angry about something, they're, they're not your average mom, busy working mom like you and me, who are busy living our lives, I always say you have to go to them, meet them where they are, and those store, they care about what's happening in those meetings, People like you and me, we just don't have the time to go and sit in town hall and city hall and usually don't unless we have a problem.

And so those become very reactive because you're listening to the people that have a grievance. And, but where's everyone else? I mean, when I started in Gilbert, I couldn't believe that the average age was 32 years old with all 250, 000 people. And I thought to myself, Oh my God, like you wouldn't know that by looking at the city council.

You wouldn't know that by looking around, you know, even in government, it was the challenge of going to people and engaging them that way. And I think that's what you're figuring out how to do in this industry.

was young and it

wasn't, 

Very young.

it wasn't being reflected in representation at the city council

level? 

And still isn't. Yeah, at all. Um, at all. We had a brief stint with a very young mayor and she quit on the dais in the height of the pandemic due to death threats over mask mandates and other things. And so I think it's now preventing all of this kind of anger and, and, and really, What I saw was an influx like you did too, I'm sure of social media for good.

Then suddenly almost being weaponized and turned against. It was like this to me, sometimes we had 500, 000 followers and I thought this is like the monster we've built that we now have to manage and then it became that. You know, well, this can't be trusted and they're, they have an agenda. And it was like, wait, what?

You know, so that all kind of shifted and turned. And when I would look around again, the average resident living their lives, you know, isn't, isn't at those tables and represented. And sadly, what I see happening now, I think more in the last four or five years is people don't want to run for local office.

And that was kind of the whole goal was to get people to think about the These jobs in local government that were critical or telling these stories and running for office. And now it's like, well, who would want to do that? You know? And I think that's what we're also seeing in our line of work with journalism, which is like something we love so dearly and it's like, It's terrifying to think about, well, what is the future of this industry look like if, if, if these jobs aren't respected the way I know they were when, when you and I first started out and I see the same thing in local government with, you know, people running for office and elected officials is like, I'm not, I'm not going to do that.

And, you know, why would I subject myself and my family to that? And, and I mean, I faced a lot of that and in the situation that I was in and, you know, it was, it was a sad. Sad time of, you know, and some of it is the, the creating the spaces for the, the loud, the loud minority, which I think we're seeing a lot on social media now, people don't come to tell you they love something, 

you know, they don't.

feed you people just being normal. What the algorithms feed you is the most outrageous thing. So it keeps dragging you. like propaganda. Where what you're getting keeps dragging you further and further and further to the extreme. And I don't, I, I personally do not like what I see.

And 

Mm-hmm

back in the day when I started using social media on my show and I put out my, here's my email address and here's my Twitter handle and here's my Facebook and however you want to get hold of me, not only can you get to me, but you might see your message show up on my show.

was, 

Yeah. I think I was with you then when we were, yeah. Mm-hmm

it was, it was, successful and it was new.

And I was really, I think among the first cable news anchors that really embraced it and used it I loved it. I would never do that now. And I don't, I don't engage a lot of what I get is. Not worthy of engaging in. It's not people who want to. Can you see that I have a fly here? Like it's January. How do I have a fly in my home? But at any rate,

Mm-hmm

it's not worthy of engaging that anymore because it's not people. It's not people who to have their mind changed. They're not open to a viewpoint. That's different. has taken on epic levels. I'm just not interested. I'm not. It's not good for my mental health.

You know what happened when I left MSNBC? I started sleeping less. Because I needed less sleep and it turns out like all of that, especially after 2010, the vitriol, the political vitriol 

Mm-hmm 

reached fever pitch. I had no idea it was going to go where it is now, but, um, I, I realized that every day I was girding for battle in part because I had started to use social media and I was getting all of this noise. at me. Um, that was unnecessary to the job of finding the facts, the truth. And now I work in business news and let me tell you, mostly, most, mostly noise dies away. It's not that people aren't opinionated and, and they are, it's just that I, you know, I, I'm, I've become an expert in certain fields it's easier to deliver news as fact And not have that be questioned. It's not, you know, it's not perfect, but it's, it's easier than when I was working in general news and especially in politics.

And isn't that a sad state of affairs though? You know, who's gonna do it if we don't? I think about that a lot. Right. Um, you know, I left the situation that I was in for many of those reasons. One, I had built something that I wanted to try to scale and help others to do. And I knew, you know, I had, I had done that job, but the vitriol was just, I mean.

It was crazy. I had restraining orders, my children's school. Um, it was just, it, like you said, a fever pitch. Yeah.

But you know what, you know, what can change that moderates,

people 

Hmm. 

are committed to being centrist.

Hmm.

I'm super committed to hearing you out. I want it. I want, I'm interested in your viewpoint and how you came at it and where you, I'm not interested in fighting over it.

I'm not, I'm, I'm passionate about being a moderate. It's an oxymoron. A passionate moderate is, is this conundrum and what are you going to do with that? But that is what we need. We need People who are middle of the roaders, who are intent on being great neighbors, good citizens, good listeners. You know, if you, if you can be a great friend to people who have wildly different views than what you have, then you're a passionate moderate.

I love that. I'm coining that. Passionate, moderate. I think we have our new, uh, This is our new road, road path. I just had this conversation with someone. I love that. So tell me about parenting during that time. So one thing I was thinking was that like you're in your home and in our day, that was not a possibility.

So how much the industry has changed that you broadcast from your house and, and there's the ups and downs to that for sure. Right. I am too. I'm sitting in my home office and, um, you know, when, you know, I'm Um, after, after I left working with you and you left, we left working together, you became a mom and you have twin boys and you know how exciting and amazing and you've been able to keep your crazy career through all these changes and, and get to be a mom in the greatest city in the world, by the way, which I still miss living in every day.

Tell me, like, tell me how you navigate all of that.

Um, I mean, I, this is going to sound very strange. You've probably never had anybody say this to you, but I'm really grateful for the time that I had with my children during the pandemic. What I mean by that is we were just this really close family unit. I got to work, I mean, I was still going outside to work.

I was doing live shots. I think I was the only correspondent at CNBC who was really doing that, but mostly from neighborhood my, my boys had an amazing nanny. Who was finishing her degree in elementary education. And so she came and she basically became their governor. She was, she was Mary Poppins on steroids she, they, they made more progress in those first few months of lockdown than they had made all year.

Mm, 

we had the most amazing time together. just, it

I know. Mm

was a silver lining for me. I don't want to, there were so many families that were desperate. For real school and a quiet space to have a zoom call and what, and I'm not taking, I don't want to take that away. That was real. And I felt like even I said to my kids too much, not now, mommy's working.

Not now. Mommy's working. Not

now. 

hmm. Mm

here from my Manhattan apartment and I'll be like, They know you cannot be on the Internet because I need all of the Internet bandwidth for my television camera and you cannot make any noise and you can't make the microwave run and you can't, don't go to the bathroom and flush the toilet because in here you'll hear it. So, so they've been well trained at this point, but what an amazing opportunity. I'm using amazing a lot. I need to think of a different adjective. It was, it was so incredible to have that flexibility.

Where now 

Mm

them up and still come back and do TV. Where in the old days, if I needed to do a five o'clock live shot. I would miss picking up my kids and have to like send somebody else out it. And I think that the world has moved that part of where we are now

has 

hmm. Mm

more flexibility and I'm super grateful for it. And I think that all these CEOs who are mandating back to work are being really short sighted because I do get that there are people who take advantage of it and you're not getting as much productivity if they're not there, you know, sort of under the watchful eye of their boss. But for the, for most of us, What it does is it said, okay, I need to take this half hour out of my day to do something for my family, but then I can also multitask and be in multiple places at once.

hmm.

gives us so much more freedom be a great employee or entrepreneur or whatever, and be a great wife, be a great

mother, be a 

Mm.

be a great dog parent.

You know, I don't want to take away from. That's important too.

Absolutely. Yes.

easy. I, I'm, I, I like where we are in terms of our workflows and how we can see each other like this. And it's not quite as good as going to lunch together, but close.

I know. I agree with you completely. And, you know, in the government world, they really never did a great job of, you know, Working remotely and, you know, I was fortunate enough to be with a team and in a place where we figured out how to do it, we were already using Microsoft teams before the pandemic and things like that, but most government organizations were not, and we're quick to return.

And I think it is an inhibitor of why, you know, I started there when I had a 10 week old and a two year old, two in diapers, and I think I was, it was seven to six and I never. Had dinner at home with the family. I never took my kids to school. And then, you know, post pandemic and even now, you know, running my own business, my daughter's in high school.

Can you believe that? High school? It's crazy. Um, she's in high school and you know, we, I drive her to school in the morning and that's our time together. That's when she talks and like holds my hand. I mean, I am appreciating those moments cause they're fleeting and she's going to leave me soon to New York for sure.

And I am just like, I'm so proud of her. I get to do this and still work. And so how amazing is that? That opportunity? I'm with you. My parents said the pandemic was their favorite year of all time because they, we kind of became a pod and they helped us with school and they're both former teachers, so they loved it.

And. And when they tell my kids that it was the greatest year of their life, my kids would look at them like, what? We didn't see our friends. We couldn't go anywhere. Like, what are you talking about? But so I know that feeling that you felt it was, it was like the world slowed down and shifted. And

survivor's guilt though, because I, I,

because 

yeah.

I understand that for so many people, it was the worst period. lives. And so I'm

not trying 

to 

Yeah. Amazing.

it. And, and just, well, I choose to look at this through optimism, but partly because of our circumstances and where I work and the ages of my, my children were so they didn't really care about friends and all that yet.

They just, they liked having the attention from their, from their family. And they loved their, they loved Kellyanne. So the fact that they got Kellyanne all day, every day instead of having to go to school, they thought was like being on vacation, you know,

Kellyanne, 

I know.

way, are like, I'm going to make her listen to this podcast.

Yes. 

teacher in Colorado. And I just think those kids, those families have no idea how lucky they are. They are to have her that she like the world. If the world needs great journalists and great

storytellers, the best teachers are also great storytellers and know how to pivot and weave and meet kids where they are great.

Great teachers are doing the job of similar job to journalists that they have to figure out how to take medicine and then wrap it in a spoonful of sugar and get it to go down.

Oh, that's so good. I love this. I know it is. It is. It's so true. I stay up at night thinking about this too. You know, what is, what is the future of journalism? What are the future of teachers? What are these critical jobs that are so important? And you're right. It's so important. I say this all the time in storytelling and, you know, I see this a lot now in my government work as well as there's great work happening.

And if no one knows about it, you know, you're doing all these amazing things, but how come you can't get it to where people are? And like you said, it used to be that the TV would turn on and you didn't have that challenge, 

but now not only do you have to go tell that story, you've got to figure out how to get it to the masses and you've got to figure out how to stay relevant.

You've got to figure out how to be growing that audience and then you build that trust. And then how do you keep. them coming back and I, kudos to you though, you are doing it. I mean, I, I'm in awe, you know, you've, you've You, you're doing it. And so what do you, where do you see five to 10 years from now? If you're like looking down that path.

you know, I, I really, I'm enjoying being part of business news. I'm enjoying, um, learning this stories and where they're going and industry stories and, and the same thing, picking out the threads of narrative and being able to determine where that goes. TV's changing. My company is going to be, um, spun off by NBC and I don't, I'm not really sure how that's going to change the platform or the scenario.

I just know that Good storytellers are always in demand. I think AI is going to change our job a little bit and, and make it easier in some ways, and also challenge us in other ways that, you know, we have to be creative and adaptable and flexible. And the older we get, the harder that is to, you know, sort of like budge us from our rut.

But I I've been really lucky that is like part two my, you know, Long TV career and it's, it's really focused on business. And so I don't know, part three might be business itself. Um, or maybe I'm going to follow in your shoes and, and be an entrepreneur. I, I think that seems very rewarding and also terrifying. So, but I'm going to

keep the 

door 

It is.

Maybe you'll, maybe you'll have advice for me on that front. If I ever go in that direction,

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, we need, they, they need storytellers everywhere. And it's, it's been so interesting for me to see, you know, all of those amazing things, like you said, that we learned in our favorite job ever, because it really was amazing. 

You don't know it in, in the moment when you're in the heyday, you know, it's like, Oh no, I said this to someone the other day.

I said. Oh my God, like it's kind of like parenting, right? Like you, you don't, you want to stay where you are in the moment. You don't want to be wishing for them to be little again. My mom always said, you got to enjoy right where you're at. Cause you can't go back, but there are those times when you think back to those situations and you think, huh, I thought to myself, I was 23 years old and I was working at MTV in New York city.

And then I was, you know, working with you and Andrea Mitchell and people that I, Nora O'Donnell, people that I admired and still admire in this field. This was, that was the dream job, you know, and, and then I saw opportunity to take all of that, that I've learned and share it in other places. And so, oh, it's the sky's the limit, whatever you want to do.

get a dream job and you're also good at your dream job? And you were, you were excellent at your dream job. So I,

Thank you.

listeners and all the people who are benefiting from your advice, they're really fortunate too. And. But, you know, we should make them listen to this so that they can hear me say so. I really appreciated all the work that you did when we were working together.

Oh, thank you, Contessa. And right back at you. And I learned so much from you, like I said, admire you still do to this day. And I'm grateful to know you as a colleague and a friend, and even just thinking about this conversation, how perfectly timely it is in the world and, and, and for people to hear. And I'm just so grateful that you took the time out of what I know is a Crazy busy schedule to talk with me.

So thank you and thank you for your work and keep going, you know, we need, we need more people like you and, and I'm just, you know, I'm, I'm going to be thinking about this for a long time.

you, Dana. Nice to see you. Nice to catch up.

You too.